Puma 2 Cougar
- Thread starter Alucard
- Start date
I disagree. As modified as my zetec is, the insurance i pay is still on a par with a standard V6 premium for me.
Explain "refined" and why it can't apply to 4pots.
I can see where he may be coming from Alan in terms of a v6 being less revvy and more torquey, which could be 'refined'. However, your car was of course the one i was referring to earlier and runs as smooth as silk - which also equals refined so it can be done.
you haven't heard or had a lift in Alan's 4 pot though have you ? lol
Maybe the exception to the general rule, but smooth as a baby's bum cheek
Maybe the exception to the general rule, but smooth as a baby's bum cheek
How much spent though over the cost price and insurance differences for starting with a v6.
I bet the engine mods alone were into the 000's as ive done the modded zetec thing and bench built one which cost around £2500
Kent hyd lifters and cams. laithe lightened flywheel .25mm head skim +1mm pistons ported head fully balanced and rebuilt bottom end new valves 421 manifold decat st170 inlet bottom and injectors with honda throttle bodies. I got about 165 to run in expecting 180 after tune on that set up on a proper RQ 130 1.8 lump
I bet the engine mods alone were into the 000's as ive done the modded zetec thing and bench built one which cost around £2500
Kent hyd lifters and cams. laithe lightened flywheel .25mm head skim +1mm pistons ported head fully balanced and rebuilt bottom end new valves 421 manifold decat st170 inlet bottom and injectors with honda throttle bodies. I got about 165 to run in expecting 180 after tune on that set up on a proper RQ 130 1.8 lump
...and twice as slippery when wet
Whats she had done?
Ill look forward to attending a meet and having a look
I was about to start a story, but this is easier
http://www.ukcougarforum.com/vb/sho...n-Mafia-does-it-again!&highlight=bolton+mafia
I don't remember if this is in the thread, but i had a focus central tb on the zetec for about two years now, plus the 4-1 manifold/sports cat into a ss performance ex.
I've got to agree with Stifler here. The Zetec is easier to tune but you'll have to spend what you pay for the car again just to get it to V6 power, so why not start with the bigger engine?
It's also a simple, undisputable engineering fact supported by hundreds of years worth of mathematics and physics that a 4 cylinder four stroke piston engine delivers one torque pulse every 180deg of crankshaft rotation, whereas a 6 cylinder four stroke piston engine delivers one torque pulse every 120deg of crankshaft rotation. The time between pulses on the 6-cyl is 2/3 that of the 4-cyl so the differences in instantaneous crankshaft speed are less. That's the reason why the V6 "pulls" more smoothly in layman's terms.
If Alucard wants the Zetec then I don't think anyone really has a problem with that, but there's a little bit too much defensiveness to claim the I4 is as refined as the V6 because it physically isn't and cannot be in any theoretical, measureable or practical sense. To claim otherwise is leaving fact and objectivity behind. Perhaps that goes back to my previous post though - You really need to be well accustomed to a smooth engine to notice how rough the I4 actually is, but infact most people are used to the I4 and regard the vibration levels as normal and perfectly acceptable.
I'm no massive V6 fan just for the record. They don't run as smoothly as straight 6s or V12s, but again that's supported by both mathematical analysis of torque pulses and smaller masses being accelerated around but not through the engine's overall centre of gravity, and actual measurement of the real thing in the flesh.
It's also a simple, undisputable engineering fact supported by hundreds of years worth of mathematics and physics that a 4 cylinder four stroke piston engine delivers one torque pulse every 180deg of crankshaft rotation, whereas a 6 cylinder four stroke piston engine delivers one torque pulse every 120deg of crankshaft rotation. The time between pulses on the 6-cyl is 2/3 that of the 4-cyl so the differences in instantaneous crankshaft speed are less. That's the reason why the V6 "pulls" more smoothly in layman's terms.
If Alucard wants the Zetec then I don't think anyone really has a problem with that, but there's a little bit too much defensiveness to claim the I4 is as refined as the V6 because it physically isn't and cannot be in any theoretical, measureable or practical sense. To claim otherwise is leaving fact and objectivity behind. Perhaps that goes back to my previous post though - You really need to be well accustomed to a smooth engine to notice how rough the I4 actually is, but infact most people are used to the I4 and regard the vibration levels as normal and perfectly acceptable.
I'm no massive V6 fan just for the record. They don't run as smoothly as straight 6s or V12s, but again that's supported by both mathematical analysis of torque pulses and smaller masses being accelerated around but not through the engine's overall centre of gravity, and actual measurement of the real thing in the flesh.
The Zetec is easier to get power gains from - and if you speak to Al, after the modifications have been done you get better MPG than with a standard Zetec (work THAT one out!!)
Even from my Mondeo days over on Mondeo Enthusiasts Group, it was always the advice that if you wanted an engine with tuning potential the Zetec wins hands down. The V6 gives you instant power but the power gains you can draw from them are more limited. I had a drive in my old C2 yesterday and yes the power is there on tap compared to the Zetec in my C1 but then my C1 isn't that much slower (the 4x4 system doesn't help). And lets not forget, to get power gains from a V6 is just as expensive if you're going to go above and beyond the ST200 manifolds/TB etc. And no I'm not being biased because I've changed from a V6 to a Zetec, I've just had the chance to live with both versions and weighing up the pros and cons it would be my choice (unless the price of petrol dropped considerably). My tuppence worth
Even from my Mondeo days over on Mondeo Enthusiasts Group, it was always the advice that if you wanted an engine with tuning potential the Zetec wins hands down. The V6 gives you instant power but the power gains you can draw from them are more limited. I had a drive in my old C2 yesterday and yes the power is there on tap compared to the Zetec in my C1 but then my C1 isn't that much slower (the 4x4 system doesn't help). And lets not forget, to get power gains from a V6 is just as expensive if you're going to go above and beyond the ST200 manifolds/TB etc. And no I'm not being biased because I've changed from a V6 to a Zetec, I've just had the chance to live with both versions and weighing up the pros and cons it would be my choice (unless the price of petrol dropped considerably). My tuppence worth
But even with said power gains, at not inconsiderable expense, you'll still be slightly shy of what a V6 makes in standard trim. With Zetecs and V6s costing largely the same to buy, the V6 actually works out cheaper in terms of BHP and torque per £ spent.
Yes, the Zetec is better on fuel but if, say, it was 5 or even 10 MPG better, you're going to have to do a lot of miles before you recoup the cost of all those mods needed to still not be quite as powerful as a standard V6.
Agreed, the V6 is quite hard to draw extra power from, but if the starting point is already above that of a highly tuned Zetec, you've effectively got that extra power for 'free' (assuming the car cost roughly the same to buy in the first place) instead of chucking a lot of additional cash at the car beyond the purchase price.
Finally, although you might, with enough tuning (and, therefore, expense) be able to get a raw BHP figure from a Zetec that rivalled a standard V6, I'd be very surprised if it were physically possible to do the same with the torque without resorting to a turbo and then you're talking big bucks.
Now don't go all defensive guys
As i see it and have always seen the comparison from many many moons ago.
The V6 is and always will be a an engine i don't want to work on, and i don't want the expense of having to pay somebody else to do it, we've all seen it, V6 pops so scrap the car?
I prefer the zetec purely for the ease of access and ease of maintainence, i am comfortable with a 4pot, always have been. I didn't buy the zetec based on running costs fuel wise, as that isn't a problem at all with the mileage i do these days, also, the mods i've done since owning the car aren't because i want to be a "V6 beater" (if i wanted that i would have bought an st200 or something bigger faster than that), the argument goes on forever. I did the mods because i needed/wanted something to do, so call it a big excercise in satisfying my practicle engineering curiosity. I am chuffed with my zetec and it's new found performance, but as standard it was always lacking power, obviously compared with the 6pots, but this debate always comes down to personal preferrence, do you want cheap maintainence cost or not? if you do then buy a zetec. If you want large heavy overweight torqy engines that cost the price of the car to fix when they break, then buy a V6 and enjoy the ride. Oh, and check ya secondaries regularly
As i see it and have always seen the comparison from many many moons ago.
The V6 is and always will be a an engine i don't want to work on, and i don't want the expense of having to pay somebody else to do it, we've all seen it, V6 pops so scrap the car?
I prefer the zetec purely for the ease of access and ease of maintainence, i am comfortable with a 4pot, always have been. I didn't buy the zetec based on running costs fuel wise, as that isn't a problem at all with the mileage i do these days, also, the mods i've done since owning the car aren't because i want to be a "V6 beater" (if i wanted that i would have bought an st200 or something bigger faster than that), the argument goes on forever. I did the mods because i needed/wanted something to do, so call it a big excercise in satisfying my practicle engineering curiosity. I am chuffed with my zetec and it's new found performance, but as standard it was always lacking power, obviously compared with the 6pots, but this debate always comes down to personal preferrence, do you want cheap maintainence cost or not? if you do then buy a zetec. If you want large heavy overweight torqy engines that cost the price of the car to fix when they break, then buy a V6 and enjoy the ride. Oh, and check ya secondaries regularly
If he's only traveling 8 miles to work it would work out cheaper to own the 4 pot, especialy if its a drive through stop start town traffic. As for paying the price of the car to mod the engine that maybe the case now with the cost of buying a Cougar at such a low price, but i'm sure it wasn't the same before compared to the V6 were you spend thousands to gain little but spend less for more with the zetec.
I moved up from a Zetec powered 1.6L Escort to the Cougar, one because I loved the looks and two because I wanted some more power, but didn't want to resort to turbo's (more to go wrong etc.) I also wanted to lose the chav factor that my car was getting (no guesses who'a fault that was) and afterwards people at work thought I'd had a promotion ....or was dealing drugs
As Obi Wan Kenobi would say
I moved up from a Zetec powered 1.6L Escort to the Cougar, one because I loved the looks and two because I wanted some more power, but didn't want to resort to turbo's (more to go wrong etc.) I also wanted to lose the chav factor that my car was getting (no guesses who'a fault that was) and afterwards people at work thought I'd had a promotion ....or was dealing drugs
As Obi Wan Kenobi would say
I'm pretty sure I have a spare 7cc 2 stroke glowplug engine you can have Alan. That'll save you some weight and it's even easier to work on
...The V6 is and always will be a an engine i don't want to work on, and i don't want the expense of having to pay somebody else to do it, we've all seen it, V6 pops so scrap the car?...
...If you want large heavy overweight torqy engines that cost the price of the car to fix when they break, then buy a V6 and enjoy the ride. Oh, and check ya secondaries regularly
Bit harsh there Al. I ran my first V6 Cougar for three years and I've had this one for two, both without the slightest hint of mechanical unreliablity or fragility, the IMRC on both cars included, and I'm pretty sure I haven't randomly dropped across the only two reliable V6 Cougars made. If the worst happens and you get 'the dreaded V6 rattle' (itself not exactly an everyday occurence) signifying a dead lump, sourcing and having a entire relacement engine fitted is still usually substantially less than £1k, most other problems are fixable with a bit of know how without breaking the bank, as has been documented on this forum time and again. Plus, Zetecs themselves aren't immune to dying and needing replacing, you yourself had a new one not so long ago!