Mondeo 4x4 Power Limit

PzKpfw_III

Forum user
Nov 26, 2011
29
0
SLC, UT, USA
Hi all. I'm a Cougar owner from across the pond and was wondering about the Mondeo 4x4's powertrain. Over here in the states there isn't much knowledge on it so I figure you guys would be more likely to know.

What I'm curious about is how much power the 4x4 drivetrain can handle? I think I read someone's speculation of about 220HP, but was hoping for a more definitive number. I would of course love to have a go at fitting this system into my Cougar if I can get ahold of the parts, but the standard 3.0 and new 3.5, 3.7 and 4.0 liter engine upgrades that are available would far surpass the 220HP mark. It would suck to put the time and money into acquiring the parts to find out that my engine would destroy it, so any information would be appreciated. Thanks.

Jeremy
 
I think it's a bit of a myth that the Mondeo 4x4 running gear cannot handle power. I think it was a problem with the earlier Sierra 4x4 which is why a lot of them were converted to two wheel drive. There's someone in the know who's building a Focus 4x4 Turbo using Mondeo 4x4 running gear and he reckons it'll handle the 400bhp it'll be pumping out :)
 
The 4x4 was designed to take 300bhp I have seen the design manual. Ford originally designed it for a 2 litre turbo engine but never produced it.
 
Wow, thanks for the quick responses. A 300 pony rating would be great and I doubt I'd likely exceed that. I'm not looking to be laying down crazy amounts of power. I just want to pep it up for a fun ride and a 300HP 4x4 setup would do that. The Jag system would be a bit easier to acquire over here, but is it as likely to be compatible as the Mondeo's?

Info on this system over here is scarce so if you all wouldn't mind I have a couple more questions. How is the power distributed through this system? Is power always going to all four wheels or only constant front and varied rear? What's the power ratio between the front and rear wheels? Since the power is being distributed between all wheels how is that likely to affect performance? I know a 4x4 system without enough power will just bog the car down so is there a number I should be aiming for?

Once again thanks for all the info, it's really appreciated.
 
I know the Jag system well, and I feel it's worth pointing out that "designed for" isn't the same thing as meaningly it'll happily take that all day long.

Back in the mists of time Jaguar fully intended there to be an X-Type R to compliment the R range of cars they sold. The X-Type R was to have been a supercharged 3.0litre of around 330bhp. 7 development cars were built. The torque bias was originally meant to be 70:30 in favour of the rear wheels on all 4x4 X-Types to make it feel as "RWD" as possible to make it feel Jaguarish despite being forced down the route of using an existing floorpan with a transverse engine.

What they found was that the failure rate of the Visteon designed transmission, and in particular the transfer differential assembly, was way, way in excess of what would be considered acceptable for a production car. That meant going back to the drawing board for the whole transmission, but Ford were in a bad way financially and decided to divert all R&D funding to their new F1 team. The X-Type R was killed, but even then the X-Type wasn't in the clear, because the n/a 3.0 V6 was suffering more transmission failures than is good for the reputation too.
The "solution" was to alter the sizing of sun, planet and ring gear in the transfer case to only send 61% of the torque to the rear instead of the original 70%. This got the failure rate numbers down to something Jaguar (and Ford) felt would be manageable through warranty claims.

I know nothing about the old Mondeo 4x4 system, but the point of this was to highlight that when running higher power than actually made production cars, you need to accept that you run a risk of a gearbox failure. It's not a certainty that it'll chew itself up, but neither is it certain that it'll be ok just because the original design calculations were based on a higher number. That's standard engineering practise, and it's done because it's hard to predict the effects of microscopic material defects and manufacturing flaws which are fairly common in low-criticality mass produced parts. Nor is it certain that just because one person has done it without a failure that you won't.

FWIW I've got the "painful" 3.0litre X-Type and I haven't had a transfer 'box failure. My old 2.5 X-Type didn't kill it's transfer 'box either. I ran a poll on the X-Type forum though and around 40% of the respondents had suffered a failure. Now I'm not stupid enough to believe 40% of X-Types break, as many only join a forum to get help with a problem. Even still, it's an issue which was never fully resolved, and if as little as 194bhp (2.5 litre) is enough break the odd gearbox, then you're going to want a spare transfer case in the garage if you intend on pumping more torque through it. It's not horsepower that matters - infact it's virtually irrelevant other than for input shaft RPM considerations. It's torque that does the damage.
 
Hrm, that's a fair point. Unfortunately there would really be nothing I could do to control the durability of the trans. What was going wrong on the Jag's trans?
 
Essentially it was insufficient lubrication. The transfer 'box was a sealed unit and had capacity for a very small quantity of oil. It generates heat from friction through use. Various scoops etc were tried to force cool it, but these weren't very effective and kept breaking off the development cars anyway. From 2004 the viscous coupling in the transfer 'box was deleted, meaning that either front or rear axle could take all of the power (my 2005 X-Type is capable of pretending to be RWD with the rear wheels spinning in snow whilst the fronts do nothing, needing nips from the handbrake (E-brake) to mimic VC). The VC deletion did make more capacity for oil though which helped. Post 2004 transfer 'box failures are much less common than pre-2004, although early cars do have better snow traction thanks to the VC.

Perhaps with a remote tank, a pump and a small oil cooler the X-Type transmission would accept much more power? The limitation was never the MTX-75 derived gearbox itself. Similarly, the rear differential is fairly robust - they always intended that would do more work than it ever really ended up doing. It's just the transfer box in the middle which couldn't handle all the power.
 
True. They would much rather have designed a RWD car from the ground up. For what it cost and how little of the Mondeo floorpan is left unmodified they would have been as well to. Even the track and wheelbase is different between X-Type and Mondeo. The only floorpan panels which could be cut out of one car and welded into the other are the front shock towers.

Having said that though, it does work and it works well. If you have a FWD car and want more power then it's a good solution. I'd bet on the Mondeo 4x4 being easier to fit than the X-Type stuff, but the X-Type is still Ford based at the end of the day and will definately bolt up to Ford engines. The rear subframe would be an issue though - the X-Type's is Mk3 Mondeo Estate based, which was more compact than the multi-blade hatch/saloon (sedan) type on other models. That alone would push me the Mondeo 4x4 route for a Cougar.

Then again, the 61% bias to the rear wheels is a very welcome advantage of the Jaguar system. With 2 tapped holes, a 2 pint tank, an electric pump and some braided hoses the X-Type's weakness would more than likely go away :)

Why not wait a bit and see how some folk on this side of the Atlantic get on with the Mondeo 4x4 system and more power? Someone here is bound to do it sooner or later :)
 
Well based on the reliability and how different it is from the Cougar I'd say the Jag 4x4 system is ruled out. Maybe the Mondeo gear will prove itself. I've heard rumours that someone has fitted one to a Zetec Cougar?
 
Yep there's a couple of folk on here who have experience of them. Two guys called Mark and Nick did them - 2 Zetecs and a V6 I think. Scunnycougar owns one of the Zetecs, Everton2004 the other. Mark (charliecd001) still owns his V6 I believe. They all speak highly of the improvement in road holding :)
 
I believe quaife do an uprated transfer box which would solve this issue guys but it is very pricey my LSD for the mtx cost around 600 quid but i now know it will easily outlast my car and take whatever I can chuck at it

I'll have a quick look for a link

www.quaife.co.uk

This is for the main website, for some reason my phone won't let me open the page
 
The Kuga uses a Haldex unit, who also supply transfer boxes to VAG and Volvo for all the transverse mounted 4x4 cars they make. It's a known weak point on the Audi S3, and a quick Google of "Ford Kuga transfer box" brought up a first hit of a forum thread reporting warranty claims for transfer box failures.

They all suffer the same problems. The old Escort RS2000 4x4's transfer box was problematic too. It's just difficult to make something so physically small handle all of the torque that medium powered cars try to put through them.
 
It has 58/42 bias to front. It also has the open to front axle and lsd to the trasfer box .The earler 4x4 from the escort had the viscous coupleing.
 
Found this on http://www.awdwiki.com/en/ford+europe/

ford-mondeo_x.jpg


It works completely differently to the Jag system. On the Jag the MTX75 still houses the front diff, but the gearbox output shaft is a tube which surrounds the right hand front driveshaft.

Here's the Jag version:

AWD.jpg